Chuck Smith hospitalized after stroke

From the OC Register.

Where did Chuck Smith Jr Go???

Found Chuck the Jr

Holly Sikorski returns to CC ABQ

Holly has chosen (against her boyfriend Michael author of the Phoenix Preacher) to return to Calvary Chapel of Albq. Holly's post in Phoenix Preacher illustrates how people cling to false religion:

I don’t view his actions in that fiasco in the same lens as many here do. Why that is, I truly don’t know. I can’t wrap my mind around the level of hostility here about that certain pastor [ed: Skip Heitzig]. I can’t understand it. I see mostly the good and that it (the church) was a place where all of us (my family) came to faith and grew. Yes, there was some bad - jeesh, I was even told of an EXTREMELY negative, blatantly false and slanderous comment that was made about *me* from the highest in that church to a bunch of other pastors in a meeting!! You think THAT doesn’t bother me??? Then you are crazy. I have feelings too, and it still saddens me. So PLEASE don’t disparage me by implying I have a pollyanna complex in this. I have my own hurts!

I guess the difference between me and you and others here is that I somehow have in my memory banks the weird handicap of blocking out the negative that a person has done and dwelling on the positive instead. It gets me in trouble sometimes, because I “forget” things.

Some things I *can’t* totally forget, like what I mentioned above, but it is my issue to cope with. Which I generally do by pretending it never happened. It usually works but today I guess it isn’t.

I am aware of some of the negative things that occured (after all, I live in ABQ and read the Journal — it was THE story for months on end). I admit much of the stuff I don’t know, and I chose not to be told. I don’t *want* to know. We all have skeletons in our closets. There’s two sides to every story, and I wasn’t privy to the inner turmoil. How can I pass judgment one way or the other when I wasn’t involved personally?

It is a church my kids/I love and we have benefitted spiritually. Okay? In spite of whatever else. The good outweighs the bad, for us. Why is so hard about that to understand?

Unbelievable!

Warning Signs of Power Corruption in Organizations

Warning Signs of Power Corruption in Organizations

James White strikes back

James White, hyper-Calvinist extraordinare, has struck back at Brian Broderson's criticisms of Calvinism.

Chuck's successor calls Calvinism names

Listen towards the end of this one, or listen to the whole thing in context. Either way.

Brian Broderson says, "Calvinism is Christianity without Jesus".

Pots and Kettles

The Phoenix Preacher has taken to going after LHT:

Compare this with Lighthouse Trails and the ilk…most have which are as theologically inept and ignorant of church history as unbelievers.

This is the reason they don't allow comments on their blogs or interact with the targets of their invective.

LOL. As someone has was banned from the Phoenix Preacher BLOG I find this hilarious.

What's up with the Jr?

I'm trying to figure out what's up with Chuck Smith Jr. There was all of that noise about him being emergent/contemplative and then noise about him pulling Capo Beach Calvary out of the denomination. Then he resigned the church. I haven't heard much from him since then. Anyone know what's up with him?

I am trying to update his bio on the CC Wiki:

http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/Chuck-Smith

Here is something from Jan 2008 where the Jr went to a memorial service for a homosexual person.

The Bloggers Respond to the Banning

Pardon the Interruption
Aug 1st, 2009 at 3:03 pm

Personally I’ve quite enjoy Tundra’s discussion with MLD and have learned some things from it.

It’s better than letting MLD off the hook on his variety of opinions…
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London
Aug 1st, 2009 at 11:00 pm

PTI- me too. I thought Doug was WAY more civil than I’ve seen him in the past.
I think some of the people who were kind of on the side lines were pretty rude though and just trying to provoke a response. Which apparently worked….
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Drew
Aug 1st, 2009 at 11:27 pm
...
Oh well you guys banned him, actually too bad, I believe he kept things interesting and entertaining.
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A Believer
Aug 2nd, 2009 at 12:05 am

London,

I’m with you on this one.

Doug doesn’t really bother me and the discussions I find very interesting.
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Martin Luther's Disciple
Aug 2nd, 2009 at 6:10 am

Bring back Tundra! Bring back Tundra! Bring back Tundra!
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The irony is for all of Michael Newnham's complaints about Calvary Chapel, he's just the same. In his misguided efforts to placate the CC crowd, he banned me from his BLOG. Not all that much different in spirit from someone else in the past that tried to placate a religious crowd by giving them what they cried out for.

Banned from Phoenix Preacher

Phoenix Preacher continues to crash and burn...
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Steve Hopkins (Pastor of http://www.calvarychapelsalem.com/)
Aug 1st, 2009 at 2:20 pm

GUYS

I said it earlier…Tboy thrives on argumentation and division. He comes here like a fisherman dangling bait hoping some one will take it. When we do in his mind ist “fish on”.

It’s pointless…there is no resolve just argumentation…so DON’T TAKE THE BAIT

Respectfully, we owe it to the other PPers here not to give this guy a platform for his vitriol. It drives the good people away…so come one.

If guys want to discuss further with him do it off line…it’s the right thing to do
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Mr Tundra Man
Aug 1st, 2009 at 2:26 pm

Steve, LOL. Typical Calvary Chapel pastor techniques.
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Steve Hopkins
Aug 1st, 2009 at 2:51 pm

Michael
I’ve never done this before but because Doug has a history of argumentation and has been banned before here and because he has disregarded and call to civility or any signs of doing anything but provoke, that he be prohibited from posting here until such time as he promises to behave himself and act more Christlike and converse in a constructive manner.
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Michael
Aug 1st, 2009 at 3:08 pm

The comment he made to steve was the end of the line.
He is under moderation.
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Mr Tundra Man
Aug 1st, 2009 at 3:20 pm

LOL.

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

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Michael
Aug 1st, 2009 at 3:28 pm

I hate banning people,even people I dislike.
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Banned!
MichaelNo Gravatar
Aug 2nd, 2009 at 8:11 am

Thus ends Dougs time on the PP…those that object are free to follow him.

Covenant of Abraham Conditional?

Someone wrote that the promises to Abraham were not conditioned on obedience.

Gen 17:9-10 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Sounds conditional on obedience to me. If you don’t circumcize, you break the covenant.

Land Promises to Israel Found in Christ

How are the land promises not better fulfilled in Christ where we have the promise of a New Jerusalem coming down from God who’s extents are 1500 miles by 1500 miles?

Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Sounds much better than the OT land promises. After all, the Lamb Himself lives at the center of the New Jerusalem.

There are at least three strong arguments against the idea of a missing and yet to be fulfilled eternal land promise to Israel.

#1 - The argument from silence. There are no direct NT references to such a thing. You would think that there should be such a reference and there are none at all.
#2 - The New Jerusalem more than fulfills any outstanding land promises and it is eternal.
#3 - Hebrews directly addresses the issue with regards to the land promises to Abraham:

Hebrews 11:8-10 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.

The city in this passage is the New Jerusalem as well (note the "builder and maker" reference which is fulfilled in the New Jerusalem).

Pre-wrath rapture position

There's a slight variation on the pre-trib rapture view which is the mid-trib rapture view, also known as the Pre-Wrath view. This particular view is that the church will be taken out at the middle of the tribulation period, prior to the second half where the wrath of God is poured out.

This view is easily enough refuted by simply reading the rest of the passage on the wrath of God.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The wrath referred to in this passage is eternal judgment, not the wrath of the tribulation.

Promises to Israel

The claim that God has promises left for Israel which He has not fulfilled reminds me of the kid who’s dad tells him that he will take him to the park on Saturday. When Saturday comes the dad surprises the kid with a day at Disneyland. When the kid gets home, he complains that dad didn’t take him to the park that day.

2Cr 1:20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

CC as a franchise

CCoF rejects the idea that CC has franchises:

There are no franchises, just opportunities.

However, CCoF uses the following analogy to describe CC:

An oft given analogy is that when you go to McDonalds for a burger, you don’t get a tuna sandwich! Likewise, when attending a Calvary Chapel you should not end up with reformed theology, mid or post tribulation viewpoints, topical and secular messages, or any of the like.

Is the Dove copywritten?

The CCoF claims copyright on the Holy Spirit dove.

For the fellowship to be meaningful we ask that everyone involved in the process avoid using the copyrighted name “Calvary Chapel” or the copyrighted symbol of the “dove” until the process has been completed and you have received a letter of acceptance into fellowship from our office.

Changes in the CCoF

There have been reports (June 09) of changes in the CCoF. The general scope of these changes is the removal of the previous system of accountability which involved regional pastors and in place have an informal system of connection between the churches.

Part of the problem is that of succession. There's no named replacement for Chuck Smith and this move takes the CCoF largely out of that future.

Chiliasm in the Early Church

An often stated claim is that the early Christian writers were premill. Many of them had premill elements based on a particular reading of the Bible. They believed that the earth had 6000 years followed by a 1000 year millennium based on the six days of creation and one day of rest. If the Bshp. Ussher chronology is right of a 4004 BC creation date (based on adding up the chronologies in the Bible), then 6000 years was up in 1996. The lynch pin of interpretation of the exegesis that led to their premillennialism has now been falsified by the calendar and their view can now be stated to be discredited/shown false. It was testable and the test failed. Now, like the early church, we’ve got to come to grips with a Scripture that didn’t work out the way our speculations led us to think it should work out.

Anti-Christ

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Nuff said.

Leaven as a bad thing

A CCite wrote:

‘Leaven’ is consistently used throughout the scripture in a negative context, referring to something that is sinful, morally corrupt, false teaching, and hypocrisy, for instance:”

Actually, it’s not used consistently in that manner. One passage is enough to refute that old chestnut, but I will give you two.

Amo 4:5 And offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim [and] publish the free offerings: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Lev 23:17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; [they are] the firstfruits unto the LORD.

Expositional Constancy

The “principle of expositional constancy” is an interesting one. However, if you want to use it, I suggest a thorough search of scripture. It’s relatively easy to do with Bible search programs. If you claim a symbol always means something then you need to be prepared to deal with counterexamples lest you end up with counterexamples which show your theory to be faulty.

Expositional constancy tends to be more of a kabbalistic method. Find the secret meaning in a word and then apply it everywhere you see the word.

Scripture interpreting Scripture is a good principle if applied properly. It requires a fairly deep reading to get to that point. Otherwise it’s just stringing passages together and it’s really easy to go wrong that way.

Another great technique is to read the OT passage that is cited in the NT and then try to understand the OT context as a way of understanding the NT passage. That’s true expositional constancy.

BTW, a number of the top google web hits for the phrase “expositional constancy” bring up Chuck Missler and CS which immediately makes me suspect of the term itself as well as the application. Fig Trees become Israel, etc.

New Wineskins

I believe that shifting scriptural paradigms doesn’t often come in an instant or with a single passage or argument. It comes as our foundations start to crack under the weight of sufficient contrary information. Eventually we realize that the view we hold dear has been false all the way along. But for all who change, there’s probably a moment when the straw was added that broke the camel’s back.

On the Wings of Eagles

Watched an early AM TV commercial for “On Wings of Eagles”. They want $350 a person to bring people from Russia to Israel. John Hagee and Pat Boone were on the infomercial. Speaking of Anti-semitism, don’t these people believe that 1/3 of these people are going to be slaughtered by the AntiChrist?

Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Who’s the Anti-Semite?

The Last Judgment in the Context of Scripture

A couple of passages:

Matthew 25:31-32…When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divedteh his sheep from the goats….etc…etc.

2 Tim 4:1…I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.

Not a problem for Amill and Postmill since we believe in the future judgment at the last day - as Jesus taught.

Matt 25 is a problem for the premill view since Jesus didn’t see to differentiate between his first, second or third second comings (first at the rapture, second before the millennium or third after the millennium).

As a Dispensationalist (CC end times view) timeline do YOU place those verses? As I said they are not a problem to the Amill or Posties.

Historical Context to Prophecy

Not all prophesy, like Hosea, has future (to us) content. Most of it is commentary on the historical situation of the day that the prophet wrote in. Hosea mostly refers to the Assyrian captivity - past history to us but present and future to Hosea. Thus, most of this is just that, history. Hosea 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 all have references to the assyrian captivity - a historical event.

Some prophesies were appropriated by the apostles as part of their understanding of what happened in Jesus. As an example:

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

God's Promises to Israel

Acts 2 is taken by Peter as the fulfillment to the regathering of the scattered children of Israel from among the nations. A remnant remained faithful of those who had been scattered among the nations came to Christ at the ingathering of the day of Pentecost. As Peter said:

Act 2:9-11 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

That’s a good representation of all of the nations and includes both ethnic Jews and converts from among the other nations. They were told to gather for the yearly festivals in Israel. God provided a means of bringing them the Gospel so that they might believe in the One who was the fulfillment of all of the OT promises.

Act 2:17-18 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:…

God's Promises to David

Can’t talk about the Kingdom of God without talking about the one on the throne, Jesus.

The Hosea 3:5 passage speaks of the promises to David. The Apostles explain how these are fulfilled in Jesus in Acts 2:29-36. They key passage in the middle of the text is:

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Peter’s argument is that David himself (being dead) isn’t the fulfillment of these sorts of OT passages, but Jesus is the fulfillment.

How do I deal with the passages which say that David will sit on the throne? The same way that the Apostle Peter dealt with it. David sits on his throne today, through his legitimate heir, Jesus, the son (descendant) of David. When the Bible speaks of the house of David (as well as archaeology), they mean the heir of the house. We see a very explicit reference to this in many places, such as:

Luk 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)

The OT has many other such passages which were a promise of the Messiah:

Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Ethnic Advantages to Israel

The Apostles seem to be making the point that there never really was an ethnic advantage for Israel. In fact, if you take something too casually you tend to lose sight of what really matters. Jesus made the same point.

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

And:

John 8:39-40 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

How many of the children in the church today take the Gospel the same way? They take for granted the grace under which they have been raised.

Along a similar line, on the influence of the Gospel in our broken world. It seems to me quite hard to make a judgment on the power (or lack of influence) of the Gospel ourselves in the midst of our culture. As fallen as it is, there’s still an incredible amount of persistent power.

I was watching a history channel on the ancient Celts this AM. Showed their human sacrifices (BC) which we tend to think of as not something our ancestors would have done. Pre-Gospel they were as fallen as the rest of the world.

Today, there is a restraint on evil even now that we can’t recognize because we have little to contrast it to. Perhaps spending some time in a pagan part of the world would do us all good?